Foxās GothamĀ TV series has been going strong for two seasons and is now renewed for a third. The show began with a focus on (future Commissioner) Jim Gordonās early career in Gotham, but has quickly expanded to include the early days of many Batman villains as well. One of the most striking of these is The Penguin; a previously cartoonish character (in screen adaptations) who has been masterfully portrayed in Gotham by Robin Lord TaylorĀ as a complex young man who rises from being a minor player in Fish Mooneyās entourage to becoming the self-proclaimed āKing of Gotham.ā Taylorās nuanced portrayal of Oswald Cobblepot, The Penguin, has made him a compelling, horrifying, and yet somehow still sympathetic character ā one Iām invested in even while Iām despising what he does.
After having had the opportunity to speak with Taylor by phone in the week leading up to Awesome ConĀ in Washington, DC, and to meet him at the Con, I can see where The Penguinās charm and disarming manner originate; but fortunately for us, and unlike The Penguin, Taylor himself strikes me as a delightful human being; and he has a lot to say about his role in Batmanās Roguesā Gallery.
Read on below for a most enjoyable interview; or listen hereĀ for the audio version.
ESW: Robin, your current role on Gotham is a big part of your career, and The Penguin, as we all know by two seasons in, has been called a ābreakout character.ā I love the nuances that you bring to the Penguin, who is a mix of pathos and viciousness. Are there any parts of his character that come from you, or that you identify with?
RLT: Yeah; I mean, the thing that really got me into the human aspect of Oswald was, when I first got the job, I reached out to Geoff Johns, whoās the chief creative officer of DC Comics, and I was like, āDo you know any stories?ā Because obviously Iād grown up with Batman, and Batman Returns was huge, and the Adam West series was also huge, but beyond that I really didnāt know very much about the character.
And he found some stories; he found one in particular which was Penguin: Pain and Prejudice; and in that story, they really went into detail about Oswaldās childhood, and how when he was young, he was horrifically bullied. Which is not something that I ever experienced, to that extent; but the fact that he had always felt like an outsider ā you know, growing up in a small town in the Midwest, I definitely identified with that feeling. Like, just because you didnāt look like everybody else, or there was something different about you ā like in my case, I was just not a āsportyā person, and I basically grew up in Friday Night Lights. So itās just that feeling of outsider-ness, and also that feeling of being counted out just by things that are out of your control. So that was the first thing I really hooked in to. I was like, āOh, I understand what this feels like,ā and it just made him all the more human for me.
And on top of that, his ambition is something that ā you know, obviously I donāt think I share quite the same amount of ambition, in the sense that I, you know, value human life! But out of all of the years of basically being rejected by everyone, and having that feed into his outsized ambition – that was another thing that I totally could identify with and understand.
ESW: I read somewhere that when you did the audition, they didnāt actually tell you it was the Penguin. Do you recall if there were any particular acting choices you made in that audition that still define the character or that rolled over into the actual on-screen character?
RLT: Yeah; the scene itself that they gave us to audition for was a fake scene ā it was not in the pilot at all, and the names were all different. But the scene involved, I believe, the Penguin character was named Paul or something, and heās having this meeting with a Mafia don, and trying to get this person to do some deal for him. Of course the don is not into it, and thatās when itās revealed that Paul has had the Mafia donās daughter kidnapped, and sheās about to be ātaken care ofā unless he does his bidding.
And in that scene, all of that is the epitome of Oswald, and that ability to sort of play ā you know, in the first part of the scene before itās revealed that he has the daughter kidnapped, heās very obsequious, and kind of meek, and deferring to the Mafia don; being lower status. And then thereās that switch halfway through where itās like, āOh no no no, actually Iām driving the ship right now; Iām steering the ship.ā You know, āYouāre going to listen to me.ā So going from that humble, almost meek, low status attitude that he had, and then immediately switching to be the guy on top; that was something that I think I definitely carried through to the show that we do now.
ESW: Generally, in previous characterizations of The Penguin on screen heās portrayed in a more cartoonish style. Can you talk about what you did to make him more real in the Gotham show sense, and yet keep him defined as he is in the comics so that heās still recognizable as the character?
RLT: First of all, I give so much, if not all credit, to Bruno Heller, and Danny Cannon, and our other producers and writers on the show. It started with Bruno and Danny, this vision and this treatment of the character. It starts with them, and then I step in and we collaborate. Again, going back to what I said before, learning how he was bullied ā it was more about findingā¦you know this is a fantastic world. Itās being able to see this character as an actual person who could exist. Which is actually kind of the allure of Batman itself in the sense that of course itās still a comic book, and crazy shit happens that would never happen in the real world, but itās always rooted in the fact that Batman is not supernatural, that Batman is a human being.
And that even though it is this gothic, noir, colorful, crazy world that we inhabit in Gotham City, itās still all rooted in reality, in the sense that, like, gravity exists, and these are human beings, and there is real pathos behind everyone.
And itās about justifying every choice that this character makes so that every action he takes, thereās a reason behind it; itās not just being evil for the sake of being evil. Also what I love about the character is that ā at one point in the second season, Galavan is trying to get him to help him get some real estate deal going, and that would require tearing down a big chunk of Gotham City, and Oswald is not into it. He says, āLook, Iām a builder, Iām not a demolition person. Iām not interested in tearing everything down.ā Heās interested in controlling everything, but also building alliances and making connections and using that to his advantage. So I guess it would be making sure that everything he does and says comes from a real place ā a real desire for Oswald to be ā I donāt know if itās accepted, or feared, or both!
ESW: You mention that Oswald is a builder and has these particular goals. Heās a monster in many ways, but he seems to have his own moral code. How would you define his moral code?
RLT: I would say: Oswald is all about ā do not come for him. If you do, you will pay. He remembers every single slight against him, every person who ever hurt him or tried to hurt him. All that, again, stemming from a childhood where heās an outcast in so many ways, like being a first generation immigrant, for example, in our show. I guess his moral code is just: āDonāt tread on me.ā But thatās the thing ā with the exception of the poor fisherman in the pilot, and maybe the guy who delivered the flowers from Maroni ā a couple of people who really didnāt deserve what they got ā for the most part, everyone whom he attacks, itās motivated by revenge, and itās all strategy for Oswald. He is anti-chaos. Chaos is not interesting to him; thatās not a place where he can get the power that he needs to survive. He wants order.
ESW: Anti-chaos. It makes me think that perhaps weāre playing Dungeons & Dragons. Heās a lawful evil ā not chaotic at all.
RLT: Yeah, totally!
ESW: Now in the second season, trying to rule Gotham, Penguin needs some worker-bee villains who will be loyal to him; and then we get Butchās betrayal in that second season. Itās a very tricky proposition, getting those loyal worker-bees and knowing that he can rely on them. What traits about the character do you think would believably cement a henchmanās loyalty and how do you establish that?
RLT: In a way, I think even though, you know, he chopped off Butchās hands, you know, big deal ā but even those things have happened, I think that Penguin himself, and it goes back to his anti-chaos attitude, I think he is actually also interested in being loyal to people as well. I think he knows that if you treat people well, you get more from them. You get more loyalty; and ultimately, that can be exploited as well.
You see this very, very clearly in his relationship with Jim Gordon, in the sense that for all intents and purposes they should be arch-enemies. But for some reason, itās this delicate dance and a push and a pull between the two of them that is important to Oswald. Because that keeps Jim in his world and again, that can be exploited in the future if need be. So I think he does reciprocate loyalty to the people that he is trusting and thatās ultimately how he can get people to join his side.
And also, this goes into ā because his actions are justified, and because we understand why he does the things he does, thereās a sympathetic side to this character. And I think that comes through to the other characters as well; in the sense that thereās something enigmatic about him that draws people in.
If I had to root this in the characterās history, I would say that this is something he learned as a survival instinct, when heās being bullied or when he was being basically tortured by his peers when he was younger. This is what you learn; you learn to ingratiate yourself to people. You make yourself seem more meek and sympathetic, and then eventually they come around, and thatās when you stick the knife in.
ESW:Ā Speaking of that, heās a pretty dark character, and you seem like a nice guy. Do you have difficulty getting into and out of that character?
RLT: I really donāt, actually! I know that sounds crazy, butā¦ Look, Iāve never played a character that physically is so different from who I am in real life. And so with the hair, the makeup, the costume ā all of those pieces coming together every day that I have to work, is ā and this is generally how I work as an actor too ā is I generally start from the outside and I go in. I let the physicality and the costuming help me get into character so Iām ready. And also, again, it goes to the sets that we shoot, and the locations that we use. With all of these things, itās like Iām stepping into Oswald, Iām stepping into Gotham City. And at the end of the day, the nose comes off, and the hair is different, and I take these beautiful suits and I put them back in the closet and then Iām back to me. Itās great to have that physical transformation that gets you into character; and from that itās generally pretty easy.
ESW: He does have some really cool suits!
RLT: God, theyāre amazing. The sucky thing is theyāre not quite my, Robin Lord Taylorās, style, so itās not like I could ever really wear them anywhere. But also ā as you can probably tell, Iām one of the least confrontational people that ever lived. And so itās actually therapeutic in a way. I know that sounds crazy, but itās really fun to step onto the set and step into the character and then all of a sudden Iām the guy whoās pushing everybodyās buttons, and Iām the guy whoās messing with everybody and starting shit. And itās liberating, and itās fun in a way.
ESW: I can understand that. So Oswald has been through a huge journey in season 2 ā he was on top; he lost his mother; he convinced Gordon to murder somebody; he was messed with by Hugo Strange; he met his father; fell back into murder; now he wants revenge and all of Strangeās monsters are out there, and Mooney is backā¦ Can you talk about how you think season 2 changed him, or what you think heāll be doing in season 3?
RLT: I think that in season 2 ā it happened twice for him, with the loss of his mother and then the loss of his father ā and thereās that lovely speech that Cory Michael Smith as Nygma gave Oswald. It was after his mother died, before he knew his father existed ā Nygma says, āYouāre free now.ā The gist is ā and this is a continuing theme throughout our entire show ā to love is to be vulnerable. You see throughout the show, characters are falling in love, or they have love in their lives, and then they lose it; and then in a way they are liberated to do whatever the hell they want to do and not feel any pressure. Because whatās left to lose.
So I think that was hugely formative, and then that it happened twice ā I think going into season 3, itās all guns blazing. And also, heās learned, having been at the top for the brief period. He learned now how much more difficult it is; and he severely overestimated his own abilities, and he didnāt take into account the fact that when youāre the āKing of Gothamā you have a giant, giant target on your back in a way that you never did before. I think thatās the most valuable lesson that he learned this season; and then going forward, I think weāre watching his transformation from someone whoās finding their way in this world to someone who now has the wherewithal and the knowledge to basically, kick ass and take names. And not fear the repercussions because, again, having lost all the love in his life, going forward, heās just going to be completely unhinged ā which Iām really excited about!
ESW: So Gotham is obviously a very villain-heavy show, and we know many of Batmanās villains are way ahead of him in development ā heās still Bruce; heās still young. How do you think this will affect the future seasons in the show, or how do you think youād like to see that happen? Do you think it will shift to being a more heroic focus as Bruce matures?
RLT: I donāt know; I think our show is about how the city corrupts. Bruce Wayne ā Batman ā comes from one of the most corrupted acts that could ever happen, one of the most horrific acts; the execution of his parents in front of him. And I could see heroic moments coming through, because obviously you need a balance between the light and the dark, but at the same time, I just think itās so much more interesting seeing even someone as virtuous and good-hearted as Bruce Wayne ā seeing him get swept up into, or sucked down into, the morass of Gotham City and its questionable moral fiber as a city; I think thatās ultimately whatās really interesting to me. And I just think that the villains are where itās at.
Also, going forward, what I find most interesting, as someone who is a fan of the Batman world, and what I think our show does very well, is show how all of these characters interact, and come in and out of each otherās lives. Itās like seeing how the Penguinās and Gordonās connection evolves over time, and also eventually, Iām sure, Bruce Wayne is going to come into Penguinās life, and all of the other charactersā lives. I love that alliances are formed and then broken; and the re-formed with someone else; some other canon character. I just think thatās fascinating.
ESW: Iāve heard Gotham compared to a soap opera, and itās not too far off!
RLT: Yeah, except weāve got monsters and bazookas; itās As The Gotham Turns.
ESW: So what experiences have you had working with the other Gotham actors? Do you have any fun stories, or any stories about having to work with actors that then the Penguin kills?
RLT: Yeah! Well we get along, as a cast, just smashingly. In fact, early on in the first season, Ben McKenzieĀ had a barbeque; and all the cast members came, and we were all there having fun, dancing, and drinking, and at one point I said to Ben, because this is my first rodeo as it were, and heās been doing this for longer than I have in a big way; I said to him, pointing at everyone having a ball, āDude, is this normal? Do casts get along like this? Because Iāve guested on shows, and you can definitely feel the vibe, and itās not this.ā And he said immediately, āNope. This is not normal. God willing, we can keep this going for the rest of our run,ā because it just makes the environment more pleasant, and we all just truly have love for everyone, and itās so nice. Itās all Iāve ever wanted in a job.
ESW: That seems to come through the social media where Iāve seen you and Cory and Ben and everyone interacting; seeing everyone talking to each other on Twitter and wherever else.
RLT: Thatās so nice to hear. And the other thing too is that weāre from all over the place, and everyoneās had such different experiences growing up; and the fact that I can, you know, meet Sean Pertwee, who could not have been from a more different place than me, and have had a more different childhood than I did ā and yet, heās now one of my very best friends. And I just love it, that people can come together and find – in this show, we found a community, which is really great.
So then on the other hand, people have asked me, āWhatās the hardest thing about Gotham?ā and honestly, it is when a main character dies. And especially if I have to do it. Itās one thing if itās a movie or a play, because thatās such a contained work. You know when someoneās going; you know the whole thing is going to be over in two-and-a-half hours anyway. Itās not as cathartic as when youāre on a television show. You really do feel that loss. Like when Carole Kaneās character is killed. It was honestly devastating for everybody. It was like, āOh, God, sheās not going to be here.ā Even though she wasnāt there all the time to begin with, it was the loss of that potential for her to be there. I canāt say enough amazing things about her.
And then of course also the same with Paul Reubens. With both of those characters, it really is devastating. You just keep thinking, āIf they had written something different, we could have been working together for years now.ā I think thatās the hardest part of the job.
ESW: So whatās been your experience with fans and conventions and this role; do fans ever blur the line and call you the Penguin; or what do you like and dislike about that? Have you had any crazy experiences?
RLT: I mean, the whole thing is generally pretty crazy. Even if you think just logically, what I do is, Iām an actor. So ideally I would just sort of disappear ā Robin Lord Taylor would disappear ā and the character would live in peopleās imaginations and that would just be it. But you know thatās not how it works. You become public people; and thatās been probably one of the most challenging things about the job. Just going from relative obscurity to being in peoplesā minds and consciousness ā thatās definitely been intense.
For the most part, everyone has been incredibly, incredibly nice, and kind. Iāve been doing conventions now for the last two years, and, like, I signed someoneās ankle, and she went and got a tattoo, and thatās kind of crazy. Honestly, the tattoos, I think, are the craziest thing! Someone also tweeted me a photo of their leg, and itās my giant face on their leg. I find that so unsettling; I mean, compared to most other things. Like, āOh God, you did that?ā You defaced your body with my face.ā
ESW: They will never forget you, ever ever!
RLT: I know. I know; that makes me really uncomfortable! But I will never be forgotten. Thereās something to be said for that.
ESW: So are you looking forward to Awesome Con? And do you follow other comics? Do you have a favorite character or storyline, or something you want to see or pick up while youāre at the show?
RLT: Iām totally psyched. This is going to be super. Iāve never been to Washington for a con before; Iām really excited to see what the vibe is like at Awesome Con. From what I hear, itās an amazing experience. For me itās always very strange. Obviously I love all of the other DC Comics properties, especially the ones that are on television, in particular The Flash and Arrow, and Supergirl as well. Because weāre all the Warner Bros. family, and we run into each other at San Diego Comic Con and all these other things. So thatās always really exciting to see those folks.
But then at the same time, with the actors who played characters from my childhood – Ā for example, I was at a convention and I was in the green room, and sitting across the table is Denise CrosbyĀ who played Tasha Yar on Star Trek: The Next Generation, and when I was a kid, that was my jam; and itās always so fun to feel the way that people feel when they come to my line or when they come up to say hello. Everyoneās so sweet and so excited to be there, and then some people are really excited and they canāt speak, and that was me talking to Denise. And thatās someone I grew up watching, and that show was so important to me at the time. So experiences like that ā just seeing anyone from something I grew up watching ā thatās where I really fan out, for sure.
ESW: I know that you recently made a foray into voice acting in Dishonored 2, and you just wrapped a movie, The Long Home; anything youād like to share about those or other projects?
RLT: Well ā Dishonored 2 ā when they told me that I was going to come in and be part of it, and read, especially, that character, the Outsider, that was amazing. An amazing experience, and also reading all about what the game is going to be like; I donāt think Iāve been this excited for a video game in a long time. The only thing Iām a little worried about is when I get it and I start playing it, I have to hear my own voiceā¦ But yeah, that was a brilliant experience. And then The Long Home, I would just encourage everyone to look for it on the festival circuit and show it some love. Itās an independent film, directed by and starring James Franco, with Josh Hutcherson, and Courtney Love, and there are just amazing, amazing people in it. Itās a low-budget, independent movie; so weāre really hoping to get some momentum behind it and Iām just really excited to see what the final product is.
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So there you have it, folks. Thank you to Robin Lord Taylor for sharing his time and thoughts with us here at ComicMix!
And until next time, Servo Lectio!
